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General Category => Altrincham FC First Team => Topic started by: dino on February 12, 2011, 08:54:12 PM



Title: "le sulk "
Post by: dino on February 12, 2011, 08:54:12 PM
woeful first 30mins , and superb battling 2nd half.  this was just like the english weather.

Smith has been our best player over the last 2 years, but from what i saw he was guilty today of racial abuse.  i was near the incident, and clearly this is not acceptable.  The club need to clarify this, and indeed if he was sent off for racist remarks, should not play again for this club. He completely lost it last 20mins.

Young was  M.O.M by a country mile


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Holmes Chapel Alty on February 12, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
So YOU think it was racial abuse and therefore the club should clarify this?

With all due respect who are you to ask to club to clarify anything just because YOU think it was racial abuse?

As for racial abuse anyway we have seen many people use the race card to get players into trouble, perhaps Kidderminster could clarify this please and if this is the case then the player should never play for them again.

Lets assume it was racial abuse, who is to say Smithy was not subject to white racial abuse first but this was not heard, and he retaliated with his own abuse - assuming as you say it was racial abuse.

If it was not racial abuse I think you need to be VERY careful in what your saying Dino as this sort of comment can ruin a  players career if false.

Get on with playing football I say.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: bumble on February 12, 2011, 11:04:53 PM
Say this was true :- I wouldnt want him banned forever - presuming this is a first offence


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: RedhillAlty on February 13, 2011, 07:55:46 AM
woeful first 30mins , and superb battling 2nd half.  this was just like the english weather.

Smith has been our best player over the last 2 years, but from what i saw he was guilty today of racial abuse.  i was near the incident, and clearly this is not acceptable.  The club need to clarify this, and indeed if he was sent off for racist remarks, should not play again for this club. He completely lost it last 20mins.

Young was  M.O.M by a country mile
Race doesnt come into it. If you were black, brown, pink  or green with yellow spots, from the comments you post on this forum you would be the same.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Sheffield Harrier on February 13, 2011, 08:52:17 AM
What exactly did you hear dino?


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: seasonticket on February 13, 2011, 09:26:10 AM
Posted this on another thread maybe it should have been on here.
Political correctness. What a load of bo**ocks.
So according to the goody goody PC brigade, calling somebody by a racist name, no matter under what circumstances is wrong and worthy of a lengthy ban. is worse  than a potentially bone breaking, career ending tackle. The latter often only getting a yellow card or even less. Remember Marcus Hallows anyone?
Its only words in the heat of the moment in a passionate game. Sticks and stones etc


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: markecky on February 13, 2011, 09:34:43 AM
I sense this one will run and run.

I don't think I have ever seen a post on a forum that defends racist abuse before though?

There is a massive difference between being PC and racially abusing someone.

Lets hope he didnt say it because trying to justify it almost as bad.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: RageAgainstTheFirstTeam on February 13, 2011, 09:45:20 AM
I wasn't there yesterday so I don't know what happened with Smithy.

I'm not condoning racial abuse in any way, but some of the comments on here about him never playing for the club again and being banned for life ect are in my opinion, a little over the top.

IT's football, we're not looking for saints, we've had convicted criminals in the team. I think his behaviour is a fkn disgrace and he needs to sort himself out and be punished for it, but this is hardly news and for me, elbowing an opposition player in the face is a lot worse. Besides, he's hardly a neo-nazi is he, having played with many players of different races in the past (and at present).

Wasn't sure whether to put this on here, but I don't want to take the common viewpoint just because it's Politically Correct.

I am not defending James Smith or his actions, or attempting to justify racism I think he is a disgrace and needs to be punished. I just think suggestions that he never play again are somewhat OTT


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Mrs Warbouys on February 13, 2011, 09:50:17 AM
I think people should be very careful with what they accuse people of without them having any official line on it and the accused any right of reply.And now you no longer hide behind the vale of anonimity dino Id make sure I my facts were 100% cast iron in these days of lega retribution.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Romeo 48 on February 13, 2011, 10:01:44 AM
I think it's time to kick football out of racism.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: John W on February 13, 2011, 10:39:37 AM
I wasn't there yesterday so I don't know what happened with Smithy.

IT's football, we're not looking for saints, we've had convicted criminals in the team. I think his behaviour is a fkn disgrace and he needs to sort himself out and be punished for it, but this is hardly news and for me, elbowing an opposition player in the face is a lot worse. Besides, he's hardly a neo-nazi is he, having played with many players of different races in the past (and at present).

I am not defending James Smith or his actions, or attempting to justify racism I think he is a disgrace and needs to be punished. I just think suggestions that he never play again are somewhat OTT

I wasn't there either and would only add that, whilst the during game punishment for elbowing and racist abuse are the same, the repercussions would be far greater for the latter if proven.  But I'm sure you know that anyway.

If this DOES go any further and IS proven, the club will be compelled to take a stance, notwithstanding any punishment from the league.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: fatcat22363 on February 13, 2011, 10:46:13 AM
Hi there. Racism is unacceptable full stop. We all need to be conscious of the messages we give to children(and adults) in public. Children learn by observation more strongly than any other way. Just imagine if you are from another culture and hear anti skin colour stuff. How would you feel. It makes me cringe and I am white. So we need to be very careful what happens at matches especially when Alty is a family club with a welcoming atmosphere. I don't think people would be saying the same if we had a black player who was being racially abused by another team.
Now I want to be crystal clear, I don't know what he said so he is guilty of zilch until it is known.   But to hear people defending racism is pretty sad, at such a decent club. Take a look at yourselves.
Incidentally it is also his job, and no company tolerates racism should it be so.
Apart from all this, lads seem to be playing well and hopefully will get a few results.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: dino on February 13, 2011, 12:06:57 PM
whilst i was nrear the incident  i certainly didnt hear anything.  i was merely commenting on the reaction from Kidderminster fans and some of the players.  Smith is one of our best players and i doubt anything was said.  it does need clearing up


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Holmes Chapel Alty on February 13, 2011, 12:50:11 PM
Smith has been our best player over the last 2 years, but from what i saw he was guilty today of racial abuse.  i was near the incident, and clearly this is not acceptable.  The club need to clarify this, and indeed if he was sent off for racist remarks, should not play again for this club. He completely lost it last 20mins.


whilst i was nrear the incident  i certainly didnt hear anything.  i was merely commenting on the reaction from Kidderminster fans and some of the players.  Smith is one of our best players and i doubt anything was said.  it does need clearing up

Which is true Dino? You were near it and from what you saw he was guilty of racial abuse or you certainly didnt hear anything.

YOU NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN YOUR COMMENTS ON SUCH A DELICATE SUBJECT. Who are you to call for an investigation when as far as I can see there is no complaint from kiddy????????????


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: bumble on February 13, 2011, 01:33:35 PM
Can anyone clear up this -

With a tacle it or fight it can be refereed to the FA for further sanctions - could this ?

Or is the case of red card , and upto the club to the next stage of discipline?


No mention on kiddys forum surely one of them must have been close to hear it?





Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: AltyTunnelSteward on February 13, 2011, 01:46:46 PM
Can anyone clear up this -

With a tacle it or fight it can be refereed to the FA for further sanctions - could this ?

Or is the case of red card , and upto the club to the next stage of discipline?


No mention on kiddys forum surely one of them must have been close to hear it?





The Referee will submit a report to the FA detailing what he saw or heard. There are standard tariffs for various offences (two cautions, DOGSO being one match, Violent Conduct and Insulting or Offensive Words/deeds being usually three matches) However, depending on the report, the FA can then increase the tariff or issue an additional charge. This often happens where racist abuse is involved.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: bumble on February 13, 2011, 01:49:20 PM
If the ref reports this, would he simply have his word against smithys or would concrete evidence be needed for future sanctions?



Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: AltyTunnelSteward on February 13, 2011, 02:00:43 PM
It would, as you put it, be the word of the Referee against the word of the player (unless one of the assistants or somebody else heard it)

The player would also be able to bring witnesses to support his version of events (i.e rather than using a racist term he actually used a different word which sounds a bit similar.

I fear that I may regret this question but hey ho!

"Why would the Referee lie? What might he hope to achieve by doing so?

 If it was proven that he had blatantly lied the implications for his career would be less than positive and I'd be surprised if anyone who has worked as hard as the Panel Refs and sacrificed so much to reach that level would jeopardise it all by lying


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: bumble on February 13, 2011, 02:13:05 PM
No accusing the ref of lying - just if there was another explanation maybe misheard or didn't hear it

Back to carls card - what was said there?

Is saying f off you cheating so an so as bad as a racist comment?


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: George Heslops Moustache on February 13, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
Yes, apparently so. The word cheat being the key there.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: AltyTunnelSteward on February 13, 2011, 03:51:35 PM
Cheat = Red Card simple as!


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: SW on February 13, 2011, 04:17:13 PM
To me this thread is running away with itself. The only suggestion that there may have been an inappropriate use of words in a racial context came firstly from Aber Alty's text message from a Kiddy fan at 7:18 pm yesterday followed by Dino's suggestion he was near to the incident later on in the evening, later partly retracted. That is, unless I have missed anything elsewhere.

If the inferences were to be true surely there would be a thread about it on the Kiddy message board and probably the Conference Forum too. Last time I checked there wasn't.

Smithy may well have sworn  or said something inappropriate but unless anyone actually heard the words and can say they did hand on heart I think all this speculation is very dangerous indeed.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Holmes Chapel Alty on February 13, 2011, 04:22:00 PM
To me this thread is running away with itself. The only suggestion that there may have been an inappropriate use of words in a racial context came firstly from Aber Alty's text message from a Kiddy fan at 7:18 pm yesterday followed by Dino's suggestion he was near to the incident later on in the evening, later partly retracted. That is, unless I have missed anything elsewhere.

If the inferences were to be true surely there would be a thread about it on the Kiddy message board and probably the Conference Forum too. Last time I checked there wasn't.

Smithy may well have sworn  or said something inappropriate but unless anyone actually heard the words and can say they did hand on heart I think all this speculation is very dangerous indeed.
Exactly my sentiments. If Smithy did not use a racist comment I think things like this will push him to Stockport. The whole thread and subject matter is really annoying me now.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Narcissist on February 13, 2011, 10:49:28 PM
This is awful for the club.

Racism is wrong on all levels in my eyes. We should bin all this talk until There's official word either way.

It could damage an innocent lads career. Or Damage our club if it's true. Some of the stuff related to this that has been posted is shameful and poorly informed.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: wayno on February 13, 2011, 10:52:49 PM
This is awful for the club.

Racism is wrong on all levels in my eyes. We should bin all this talk until There's official word either way.

It could damage an innocent lads career. Or Damage our club if it's true. Some of the stuff related to this that has been posted is shameful and poorly informed.

I agree compleley we really do ourselves no favours sometimes


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: John Crewe on February 13, 2011, 11:15:36 PM
Smith has been our best player over the last 2 years, but from what i saw he was guilty today of racial abuse.  i was near the incident, and clearly this is not acceptable.  The club need to clarify this, and indeed if he was sent off for racist remarks, should not play again for this club. He completely lost it last 20mins.


whilst i was nrear the incident  i certainly didnt hear anything.  i was merely commenting on the reaction from Kidderminster fans and some of the players.  Smith is one of our best players and i doubt anything was said.  it does need clearing up

Which is true Dino? You were near it and from what you saw he was guilty of racial abuse or you certainly didnt hear anything.

YOU NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN YOUR COMMENTS ON SUCH A DELICATE SUBJECT. Who are you to call for an investigation when as far as I can see there is no complaint from kiddy????????????

There is clearly no story here

People like Dino is just trying to cause trouble because the Kiddy player involved happened to be ethnic

Smithy (and I am not defending it) was wound up becouse the same Kiddy player had only minutes earlier stamped on Shaun Densmores head and escaped unpunished.

So if we thinking of handing out bans then maybe trouble makers like Dino should be top of the list?


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: AltyTunnelSteward on February 13, 2011, 11:18:33 PM
Smith has been our best player over the last 2 years, but from what i saw he was guilty today of racial abuse.  i was near the incident, and clearly this is not acceptable.  The club need to clarify this, and indeed if he was sent off for racist remarks, should not play again for this club. He completely lost it last 20mins.


whilst i was nrear the incident  i certainly didnt hear anything.  i was merely commenting on the reaction from Kidderminster fans and some of the players.  Smith is one of our best players and i doubt anything was said.  it does need clearing up

Which is true Dino? You were near it and from what you saw he was guilty of racial abuse or you certainly didnt hear anything.

YOU NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN YOUR COMMENTS ON SUCH A DELICATE SUBJECT. Who are you to call for an investigation when as far as I can see there is no complaint from kiddy????????????

There is clearly no story here

People like Dino is just trying to cause trouble because the Kiddy player involved happened to be ethnic

Smithy (and I am not defending it) was wound up becouse the same Kiddy player had only minutes earlier stamped on Shaun Densmores head and escaped unpunished.

So if we thinking of handing out bans then maybe trouble makers like Dino should be top of the list?

With respect I'm not sure that this is any more helpful


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Steve from Sale on February 13, 2011, 11:43:27 PM
Ecky/Gary

I would suggest the whole thread be deleted, all this should have been left to any FA investigation/sending off, and should not be discussed due to the harm it can do.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: markecky on February 14, 2011, 12:10:24 AM
There is often accusations (particularly during heated times) that free speech is not allowed on here.

A supporter has reported on an incident he believes occured at the time.

This incident has been neither confirmed nor denied by the football club.

If we delete this thread, another one will appear asking why it has been deleted and suggesting allsorts of conspiracy theories.

I am sure that a statement will come from the club shortly, either officialy to advise it was true and the action being taken or on here to deny such a thing happened.

At the moment this thread is a discussion on what may have happened and peoples views on racism in football.

Me personally, I don't believe in washing your own (alledgely) dirty linen in public but everyone has a different point of view, its what makes it a forum.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: crianza on February 14, 2011, 12:49:35 PM
Kiddy fan here.
Have to say dino that your original posting is somewhat OTT. I was sat close to the incident and i find it very hard to see how you could "hear" what was said in front of our biggest crowd for years.

My take on the incident is that Smith was penalised for a foul on Matt. He voiced his displeasure at Matt and Matt started laughing it off and made gestures to Smith about mouthing off. Mcphee then said something to Smith who then stupidly elbowed Mcphee in the face. Credit to Mcphee who didn't make a meal of it, but it happened right in front of the referee and i believe that is what Smith was, quite rightly, red carded for.

After he was dismissed, Smith was then walking past Matt and head butted him. Again, credit to Matt for not going down, but whether anything was said is open to debate. In my opinion, assumptions are being made here on the basis that three or four Altrincham players were trying to pacify Matt after the incident and again immediately after the game. I don't see how the referee could hear it from where he was, but he did see the head butt incident and could file that in his match report. That could lead to an additional three to five game ban on top of the three for the first incident. Whilst no one can condone CLEAR racial abuse, this incident has too much ifs and buts (if you excuse the pun !) and the fact that no reference has been made to it at Kidderminster suggests it is getting blown out of proportion on here.

With regards to the match itself, i think you can count yourselves unlucky with the first sending off and penalty award. Justice was done in us missing the penalty and a red card it definately wasn't. This incident seemed to unsettle us more in the second half and you can consider yourselves unlucky to have left without a point. Best of luck for the rest of the season, i think the signings of Young and Dobson should help in your battle to stay up. On Saturday's performance, i'm sure there are four worse teams in our league.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Narcissist on February 14, 2011, 01:07:45 PM
Did Smith really do all that in the sending off?

Elbows, headbutts, mouthing off? Are the alty fans supporting that view of things too?


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Butty on February 14, 2011, 05:05:04 PM
If there was a stamp involved, and (some) people feel strongly about it, could we get hold of the dvd? ;)


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: hsmith1 on February 14, 2011, 05:54:15 PM
Wait for the offical report is what i say.Thanks Crianza for trying to clear up the abuse bit,sounds like smithie has been a bit of a silly boy ,but as said wait for the offical report.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Mick on February 14, 2011, 08:43:14 PM
Thanks. Good to hear from a Kiddy fan who may have been close by....seems we have been shooting ourselves in the foot on here by reacting to hearsay instead of waiting for the facts


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Mick on February 14, 2011, 08:44:26 PM
Crianza...any chance you can drag Mr Burr to the FA Appeals Committee to clarify the first sending off  ::)


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: crianza on February 15, 2011, 12:15:41 AM
Hi Mick.,

Unfortunately, these panels who review these decisions very seldom reverse them nowadays. They don't like undermining referees, but it is very rare to see clubs appeal decisions these days and that proves that your club feel justified in doing so.

If there is any justice, then it will be rescinded. Most supporters around me and myself, thought that the penalty award was for a handball after the tackle and were gobsmacked when the red card came out. And we thought the card was for a deliberate handball ! As was said at the time, a typical Man United homer.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: roytonmike on February 15, 2011, 10:40:34 AM
Unfortunately it has to be said that this is the fourth time I for one have seen Smith 'lose it' on-field this campaign; twice pre-season (at Nantwich & Curzon) and twice recently (at Runcorn & Kiddy). I believed on Saturday that he would deserve any punishment he might get and nothing since has changed my mind on that. If he has any ambitions to play at a higher level than at present it's an area he will have to address urgently - and from our point of view his actions have at the very least landed us with selection problems at a vital stage of the season. I'm afraid I find it difficult to drum up any sympathy for him. 


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: PukkaPieman on February 15, 2011, 01:01:03 PM
Smudge got a 2 game ban.

Back for York game ;)


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: crianza on February 21, 2011, 12:19:58 AM
Don't know if you guys are aware of this, but according to the FA website, on the 17th February, James Smith was charged under rule E3 with improper conduct with reference to colour / race. He has until the 22nd to respond to the charge.

Seems the referee may have heard something after all ? Very sad if a lengthy ban is imposed as there was some initial provocation from Matt in the first instance, although the alleged behaviour cannot be condoned.


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Romeo 48 on February 21, 2011, 12:34:48 AM
Don't know if you guys are aware of this, but according to the FA website, on the 17th February, James Smith was charged under rule E3 with improper conduct with reference to colour / race. He has until the 22nd to respond to the charge.

Seems the referee may have heard something after all ? Very sad if a lengthy ban is imposed as there was some initial provocation from Matt in the first instance, although the alleged behaviour cannot be condoned.
Thanks Crianza, this one had passed us by (I really must start reading the FA website !). Any ideas on the potential punishment if this is proven, anyone ?


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: George Heslops Moustache on February 21, 2011, 01:04:45 AM
Can't answer your question Phil, however here is the link to the website, courtesy of my Kiddy supporting mate... ;-)

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/Disciplinary/NewsAndFeatures/2010/DiscAug1011

Also, here is a video including the Piergianni dismissal, and this just proves what a complete balls up by the referee it actually was.

http://www.harriers.co.uk/page/LatestNews/0,,10438~2296104,00.html#


Title: Re: "le sulk "
Post by: Timperley The Best on February 21, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
does this mean if found guilty smith will miss the york game ? greg already out we could be struggling.