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 AFC latest accounts out today.
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beaker141

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2016, 11:03:24 PM »

So we made a 27k profit last year but didn't bring anyone in to try and keep the club in The National Division? Unbelievable!!

Martin, you need to try and stop being so simplistic, when it comes to accounting periods and what happens on the field it isnt that simple.

So Ian,we suffered an avoidable relegation,are now 7 points adrift in a regional league but everything's fantastic because we made a 27k profit? Great stuff.

Ffs, a 27k profit on turnover of 600k+ is not far off a rounding difference. To me, that's balanced the books, and don't forget the loss the previous season of 30k+

If we make a loss - who funds it !
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Matt Taylor

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2016, 11:29:04 PM »

On the Telford post the financial progress of the club was being discussed and various misconceptions and inaccuracies were occuring so I thought I would start a new thread and post some actual factual information taken directly out of the clubs accounts for the last 6 years, the latest accounts being published to shareholders today.

It should be noted that the current board inherited shareholder funds of (600K ) ie in debt ) and a short term lease of the ground.

Year    Turnover   Profit     Shareholder League       FA cup                           Other notable
ended      1000's   or loss    Funds         in for year   progress                         events
31 May        K             K              K
2011        553        (62)         (40)          BSP             Lost FAC 4Q Gateshead
2012        416           2.5        (37)          BSN            Lost FAC2Q Witton
2013        475         386         348           BSN            Lost FAC1 Replay Burton  Duncan Watmore sold
2014        507        (16)         332           BSN            Lost FAC2Q Trafford         CSH started being built
2015        587        (39)         292           NL               Lost FAC1 Blyth                CSH built
2016        675          27          319           NL              Lost FAC2 Colchester

The clubs assets have increased from approx 300K to around £1m today.
The club now has an 80 year lease on the ground.
The club has NO DEBT or directors loans.
The club has increased turnover to the highest level ever achieved.
These accounts do not include the CSH income/expenditure as this is a not for profit social enterprise. It is on budget.

Hopefully publishing these figures will correct various misconceptions.

Unlike Telford, and many other NL clubs AFC is financially very stable and living with its (increasing) means.

The benefits that the AFC board foresaw of building the CSH are now being realised in terms of future financial security and stability.

Hi Ian. Thanks for the above. It is indeed very interesting. Although I’m not sure it really has any bearing on any “misconceptions and inaccuracies”? Let’s take out the ‘paper profit’ (as described that year by the board) in 2013 due to the cancelling of the “exception item” relating to the directors loan – that is slightly misleading. We commendably made an actual real profit of £30k that year (2013). Maybe you haven’t seen the accounts from that year. In which case, please feel free to get in touch. It’s always good to clear up any “misconceptions and inaccuracies”.
So the figures you quote leave a deficit of nearly £60k over the same period. In cash profit. So “consistently balancing the books” still looks a long way off and quite fanciful. Particularly when the current chairman himself was drawing attention to the dwindling cash reserves at the last AGM (Feb 16).
And let’s not forget the unbudgeted quarter of a million pounds (£250k!) that have come into the football club over the last few years - that has still ended with us 6 points adrift in a regional league.

If you want to look at this year’s accounts in isolation – as it is surely what has prompted you to start a new post. Let’s consider the previous communication from the current chairman.
Feb 16 – “The 2015-16 budget is projected to lose £36k” (?!?!)
Sep 16 – “Grahame Rowley said that last season's accounts showed that there was just a £4,000 "profit" at the end of the financial period. So funds were largely used up.”
Oct 16 – Club profits for the year to 31st May 2016 show +£27k
From reading the above it’s difficult to know who is misleading who and where the incompetence takes over.

Martin, I can see why it would be a logical conclusion to look at a £27k profit in a relegation season and wonder why we didn’t sign more players, or employ a proper manager to stay in the conference. But when you consider the previous misadventure of the current board then perhaps it is more understandable as to why the funds couldn’t be released. Quoting from the chairman again from earlier this year, “the Club’s cash reserves will be down to £38k by the season end, leaving little room to manoeuvre”. It always needs to be paid back at some stage.

All that said, the unexpected profit turned in the last tax year is a definite positive and a step in the right direction – even if boosted by considerable and unbudgeted FA Cup/TV turnover. On that basis, let’s hope for a favourable draw on Monday.

And finally, without wanting to look like I'm nit-picking (but in the interest of clearing up any "misconceptions and inaccuracies") the chairman's annual address at the AGM indicates that the initial transfer fee for Duncan Watmore was within the year ending 2014, not 2013 as indicated by your table above.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:37:00 PM by Matt Taylor »
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2016, 11:40:28 PM »

Matt
I thought by summarising the accounts would reveal that the overall financial position is stable and improving,.... however your response reveals you have your own agenda and your comments about the chairman are completely out of order.
In any business the accounts are always in flux and WIP accounts can only give a guide. Your estimates are not borne out by the accounts at all.

You clearly dont want the facts to get in the way of your own arguments. Very disappointed in your attitude now.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:42:34 PM by PukkaPieman »
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Ballers

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2016, 12:14:21 AM »

Ian,

Please don't talk about attitude.

You have neglected to mention that Alty Community Sports owes the club £46,000.

If you were working without an agenda I'd have thought this was a very important point to raise.

Or is it just when it suits?
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wayno

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2016, 08:12:24 AM »

Ian,

Please don't talk about attitude.

You have neglected to mention that Alty Community Sports owes the club £46,000.

If you were working without an agenda I'd have thought this was a very important point to raise.

Or is it just when it suits?
you must be mistaken I asked if we had any outstanding debts or loans and was told no.

Ian can you clarify please ?
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2016, 08:02:52 PM »

Ian,
Please don't talk about attitude.
You have neglected to mention that Alty Community Sports owes the club £46,000.
If you were working without an agenda I'd have thought this was a very important point to raise.
Or is it just when it suits?
you must be mistaken I asked if we had any outstanding debts or loans and was told no.
Ian can you clarify please ?

With pleasure.

When accounts are prepared there are always creditors and debtors, these are a normal business fact and the accounts reflect a point in time. It only affects cashflow.
As everyone knows, AFC loaned CSH 25K in 2014 to fund the design, sports consultancy and planning consents etc. It appears from the accounts that on 31st May 2016 the club were owed 46K.
I have no idea if this has been repaid yet (some 5 months later) what is clear though is that as of 31 May 2016 AFC had 107K in the bank.

Wayno,... this is a loan made by the club, dont confuse this with a debt. And since this debtor is from a company whom AFC effectively control its not a risk unless the CSH fails, which it clearly isnt doing.

Ballers,... it suits me fine to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth m'lad  :D
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2016, 08:26:05 PM »

Matt pointed out that the summary included "accounting" items like the removal of the 355K loan in 2013 (which has now gone forever) which distorts the figures.
I agree and would also point out that the profit and loss accounts also allow for another accounting factor ie depreciation.
Since the club now has a new large asset (The CSH) the profits shown are after deduction of depreciation, this isnt a "real" cost but is tax deductable so the profit is reduced so as to avoid tax.

So to give a more accurate reflection of the profit/loss situation I have amended the summary below without depreciation and with the loan removal.

Year    Turnover   Profit      League       FA cup                           Other notable
ended      1000's   or loss    in for year   progress                         events
31 May        K             K            
2011        553        (62)        BSP           L ost FAC 4Q Gateshead
2012        416            2.5       BSN          Lost FAC2Q Witton
2013        475          31        BSN            Lost FAC1 Replay Burton  Duncan Watmore sold
2014        507          14     BSN            Lost FAC2Q Trafford         CSH started being built
2015        587          (5)       NL              Lost FAC1 Blyth                CSH built
2016        675          66        NL              Lost FAC2 Colchester

Net profit/loss for last 6 years, = £46K profit. (dividing by 6 this is an average profit of 7K pa.)

The AFC books are clearly BALANCED over the last 6 years, NOT a loss as some posters seem determined to claim.

So whatever income the club has been able to achieve has been spent on the running of the club, and the vast majority on the team.


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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2016, 08:30:59 PM »

Hi Ian. Thanks for the above. It is indeed very interesting. Although I’m not sure it really has any bearing on any “misconceptions and inaccuracies”? Let’s take out the ‘paper profit’ (as described that year by the board) in 2013 due to the cancelling of the “exception item” relating to the directors loan – that is slightly misleading. (I AGREE SEE BELOW).
We commendably made an actual real profit of £30k that year (2013). (I  AGREE SEE BELOW)
Maybe you haven’t seen the accounts from that year. In which case, please feel free to get in touch. It’s always good to clear up any “misconceptions and inaccuracies”. (THANKS I HAVE ALL THE ACCOUNTS, WHERE DID YOU THINK I GOT ALL THIS FROM).
So the figures you quote leave a deficit of nearly £60k over the same period. In cash profit. (WRONG, THE PROFIT IS 46K OVER LAST 6 YEARS)
So “consistently balancing the books” still looks a long way off and quite fanciful. (WRONG AGAIN)
Particularly when the current chairman himself was drawing attention to the dwindling cash reserves at the last AGM (Feb 16). (CASHFLOW IS DIFFERENT FROM PROFIT/LOSS)
And let’s not forget the unbudgeted quarter of a million pounds (£250k!) that have come into the football club over the last few years - that has still ended with us 6 points adrift in a regional league. (THE ACCOUNTS DONT SUPPORT YOUR FAG PACKET ESTIMATES).
But I do agree the money has not been wisely spent this season by the manager we started with.

If you want to look at this year’s accounts in isolation – as it is surely what has prompted you to start a new post. Let’s consider the previous communication from the current chairman.
Feb 16 – “The 2015-16 budget is projected to lose £36k” (?!?!) (THAT WAS 8 MONTHS AGO, clearly things improved, more functions and donations I suspect probably due top his appeal).
Sep 16 – “Grahame Rowley said that last season's accounts showed that there was just a £4,000 "profit" at the end of the financial period. So funds were largely used up.” (Again, this was before the accounts were actually completed, looks like it was better than expected).
Oct 16 – Club profits for the year to 31st May 2016 show +£27k (66K actually in cash terms)
From reading the above it’s difficult to know who is misleading who and where the incompetence takes over.

And finally, without wanting to look like I'm nit-picking (but in the interest of clearing up any "misconceptions and inaccuracies") the chairman's annual address at the AGM indicates that the initial transfer fee for Duncan Watmore was within the year ending 2014, not 2013 as indicated by your table above.
Firstly the Duncan money has never been published, it is the subject iof a confidentiality agreement so your estimate of 100K is pure speculation, I dont know either.
Secondly, Dunc was sold in late May/june 2013 so any funds would have been in the 2013/14 accounts and if you compare 2013 (475) and 2014 (507) that would seem to tally



Matt. Please see my replies to your comments in bold above.

You have been clearly irked by my comment about "misconceptions and inaccuracies" which wasnt actually aimed specifically at yourself,............   however if the cap fits then please wear it ;)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 09:07:51 PM by PukkaPieman »
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wayno

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2016, 08:31:17 PM »

Thanks for coming back to me it's appreciated

It's fair to say we have cash in the bank and more to come from the progression in the cup

Give Jim the pin code please 😎
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2016, 08:53:18 PM »

Thanks for coming back to me it's appreciated
It's fair to say we have cash in the bank and more to come from the progression in the cup
Give Jim the pin code please 😎

I am just a fan, I dont have any say in anything, just observing things like the rest of us ::) ;)
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Nom de plume

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2016, 10:12:46 PM »

Thanks for coming back to me it's appreciated
It's fair to say we have cash in the bank and more to come from the progression in the cup
Give Jim the pin code please 😎

I am just a fan, I dont have any say in anything, just observing things like the rest of us ::) ;)
So what has prompted you this year, to publish on this forum, and therefore the world, the accounts of Altrincham FC. Presumably, like me, you are a shareholder and had it in your power to do this on many an occasion in the past but have chosen not to. What has changed?
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GB Alty

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2016, 10:28:07 PM »

Ian,
Please don't talk about attitude.
You have neglected to mention that Alty Community Sports owes the club £46,000.
If you were working without an agenda I'd have thought this was a very important point to raise.
Or is it just when it suits?
you must be mistaken I asked if we had any outstanding debts or loans and was told no.
Ian can you clarify please ?

With pleasure.

When accounts are prepared there are always creditors and debtors, these are a normal business fact and the accounts reflect a point in time. It only affects cashflow.
As everyone knows, AFC loaned CSH 25K in 2014 to fund the design, sports consultancy and planning consents etc. It appears from the accounts that on 31st May 2016 the club were owed 46K.
I have no idea if this has been repaid yet (some 5 months later) what is clear though is that as of 31 May 2016 AFC had 107K in the bank.

Wayno,... this is a loan made by the club, dont confuse this with a debt. And since this debtor is from a company whom AFC effectively control its not a risk unless the CSH fails, which it clearly isnt doing.

Ballers,... it suits me fine to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth m'lad  :D
so Pukka to confirm as at 31st May 2016 the CSH owed AFC £46k ? That being just one month after relegation, great! And we were told that the CSH would never impact on funding for the team - was just bullsh*t wasn't it?

The board prioritised the development of the CSH over the development of the football team which ultimately resulted in relegation. It's this taking the eye of the ball that so many supporters are so bitter about and can't forgive - made worse by the boards lack of acceptance and inability to take some responsibility for the mess
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2016, 10:40:26 PM »

Thanks for coming back to me it's appreciated
It's fair to say we have cash in the bank and more to come from the progression in the cup
Give Jim the pin code please 😎
I am just a fan, I dont have any say in anything, just observing things like the rest of us ::) ;)
So what has prompted you this year, to publish on this forum, and therefore the world, the accounts of Altrincham FC. Presumably, like me, you are a shareholder and had it in your power to do this on many an occasion in the past but have chosen not to. What has changed?

Now that is a very good question, indeed THE question.

Firstly, the AFC accounts are public knowledge, published and available on the companies house and many other websites, so hardly secret.

I never posted anything before on this but have been taking a keen interest since the CSH was built (which I was involved with) as I wanted to see how this was going, since the primary reason behind the board taking the decision to do it was to find a way of securing the club's long term financial future, rather than struggling to survive year on year as we, and many of our competitors, had been doing.

Since the CSH was completed in late 2014 and then opened in Jan 2015, it was obvious that the CSH was attracting more and more people to the club on match days and other occasions, as was hoped it would,... increasing AFC income from the Bar, Functions and snack bar  etc.
By chance, a topic appeared on the forum last week about Telford struggling financially and it set me thinking again about how we were doing. Then our latest accounts were published (I got mine friday) which gave me chance to see a full years accounts of the club including the CSH.

Its not easy to attribute the rise in turnover from the accounts but it seems as though we have had a significant increase in overall income from 507K in 2014 (which included the watmore money) to 675K last year.
Even allowing for the FAC money last year, that is at least a 100K pa rise in income, maybe more which is a serious game changer.
Having said that the turnover will fall this year due to relegation unless we do even better in the FAC and FAT.

The other reason I have posted more factual data is that some posters were drawing conclusions about how well or otherwise the board were running the club based on "estimates" of income, so I thought it only fair that everyone (most forum members dont get accounts I imagine) knew the actual numbers.

You can draw your own conclusions now based on accurate figures. I know I have.
What a lot of fans cannot reconcile is how well we have been doing off the pitch,...  rather than ON IT.
On that, I can only agree with them.
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PukkaPieman

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2016, 10:47:52 PM »

Ian,
Please don't talk about attitude.
You have neglected to mention that Alty Community Sports owes the club £46,000.
If you were working without an agenda I'd have thought this was a very important point to raise.
Or is it just when it suits?
you must be mistaken I asked if we had any outstanding debts or loans and was told no.
Ian can you clarify please ?

With pleasure.
When accounts are prepared there are always creditors and debtors, these are a normal business fact and the accounts reflect a point in time. It only affects cashflow.
As everyone knows, AFC loaned CSH 25K in 2014 to fund the design, sports consultancy and planning consents etc. It appears from the accounts that on 31st May 2016 the club were owed 46K.
I have no idea if this has been repaid yet (some 5 months later) what is clear though is that as of 31 May 2016 AFC had 107K in the bank.
Wayno,... this is a loan made by the club, dont confuse this with a debt. And since this debtor is from a company whom AFC effectively control its not a risk unless the CSH fails, which it clearly isnt doing.
Ballers,... it suits me fine to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth m'lad  :D
so Pukka to confirm as at 31st May 2016 the CSH owed AFC £46k ? That being just one month after relegation, great! And we were told that the CSH would never impact on funding for the team - was just bullsh*t wasn't it?

The board prioritised the development of the CSH over the development of the football team which ultimately resulted in relegation. It's this taking the eye of the ball that so many supporters are so bitter about and can't forgive - made worse by the boards lack of acceptance and inability to take some responsibility for the mess

Jamie. You are an accountant I believe, yet you dont appear to understand accounts or cashflow?
On 31st May 2016 (a month after the season finished) the club had 107K in the bank and a debtor of 46K, of which 25K was a loan.
The P/L accounts clearly show that the CSH did not impact the team, 66K profit, YES/NO ?
Indeed, the CSH increased our income by at least 100K,... do you get it now  Mr Accountant? Sorry it doesnt suit your agenda.
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Nom de plume

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Re: AFC latest accounts out today.
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2016, 11:07:12 PM »

What a lot of fans cannot reconcile is how well we have been doing off the pitch,...
And has this thread shown that your publishing of this information and subsequent misguided interpretation of the figures, has allowed the fans to reconcile how well we have been doing off the pitch?
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 AFC latest accounts out today.