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+ www.altyfans.co.uk » General Category » Altrincham FC First Team
 Talking about investment...
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Author Topic: Talking about investment...  (Read 36651 times)

Jezza

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Talking about investment...
« on: May 04, 2018, 02:16:47 PM »

While it's great that Mr Looney has stepped up and invested sizeably in Alty, this is at the expense of having a majority shareholding available as a carrot to a new owner which was I thought the reason behind John King's excellent gesture of donating his non voting shares to the club,.

Do we not now have yet another shareholder holding about 10% who may in 2 years time be as disinterested and unlikely to reinvest as rosenfield white and co?

Why wasn't he offered Geoff Goodwin's holding that we were always told would be left behind in the boardroom?

Not sure how much Mr Rowley paid for his shares (pretty sure it was nothing) but surely someone who gives up his free time to wash up in the bar after matches would relinquish some holding?....especially as he only got off the hook temporarily in order to bring in a decent new majority shareholder??????

I'm not sure Kingy gave over his shares to exaserbate the problem of dilution kingy created when he broke up the shareholding originally....an ownership model that will never support full time football.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 02:23:05 PM by The Thriving Jezza »
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Jezza

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 02:22:14 PM »

In fact having now achieved/earned promotion isn't now the ideal and opportune time for the board to make investment an absolute priority?

In all the publicity about our promotion there has not been a hint that investment is available.....it's almost like it's a secret!
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Alty Bri

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 02:35:46 PM »

Agreed. This model will never support full time football. This is why the sh*t will eventually hit the fan again...
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Nom de plume

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 05:35:19 PM »

While it's great that Mr Looney has stepped up and invested sizeably in Alty, this is at the expense of having a majority shareholding available as a carrot to a new owner which was I thought the reason behind John King's excellent gesture of donating his non voting shares to the club,.
No it wasn’t  I specifically asked this question at the EGM and Grahame Rowley stated that the intention of the share issue was to be able to reward people like Bill Waterson, who invested modest sums. Not for one investor to buy the lot. He added, however, that should someone come forward to purchase the club, then that would still be possible.

IIRC this was correctly reported by John Laidlar on the club website at the time, but has been misunderstood by many on this forum.

Presumably Mr Looney is the first who has been able to take up that opportunity and we/the club can benefit from his expertise as a consequence.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:39:12 PM by Nom de plume »
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Jezza

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 12:34:15 PM »

Little point in creating a 51% majority shareholding and then breaking it up...

Our whole problem is we have rewarded previous investors when kingy broke up the shareholding......so any investor see's others have more of a say on where that investment goes...and the old investors cling onto the shares (whilst being totally disinterested in the club) making new investment impossible....if Mr Looney does what he did when at Lancaster and upsticks will he hand his shares back?....will he as a shareholder break the mould and invest again as many interested shareholders at other clubs do?

Geoff Goodwin said he'd leave his shares in the boardroom...reward Mr Looney with these.....Mr Rowley got his sizeable chunk of shares for nothing (unless someone can show me his investment in the books) so I will ask him, what he and the board asked STAR....why do you neeed more than one share Mr Rowley?

Keep the 51% new voting shares specifically created so someone could come forward to purchase the club.....at the moment we do not have a majority shareholding freely available and the call for investment will now presumably return to the tired old hopeful occasional media bite give us some money...we'll decide how to spend it as you'll be one of many token minority shareholders....and we'll be told no-one wants to invest in Alty

Rowley frittered away the watmore windfall in dribs and drabs at a starting point of the National league resulting in us dropping to the evostick........I'm hoping the new investment will not be similarly wasted but with the same sitting chairman that possibility is heightened...

« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 12:37:38 PM by The Thriving Jezza »
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Jimmy Hill

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 03:39:54 PM »

Little point in creating a 51% majority shareholding and then breaking it up...

Our whole problem is we have rewarded previous investors when kingy broke up the shareholding......so any investor see's others have more of a say on where that investment goes...and the old investors cling onto the shares (whilst being totally disinterested in the club) making new investment impossible....if Mr Looney does what he did when at Lancaster and upsticks will he hand his shares back?....will he as a shareholder break the mould and invest again as many interested shareholders at other clubs do?

Geoff Goodwin said he'd leave his shares in the boardroom...reward Mr Looney with these.....Mr Rowley got his sizeable chunk of shares for nothing (unless someone can show me his investment in the books) so I will ask him, what he and the board asked STAR....why do you neeed more than one share Mr Rowley?

Keep the 51% new voting shares specifically created so someone could come forward to purchase the club.....at the moment we do not have a majority shareholding freely available and the call for investment will now presumably return to the tired old hopeful occasional media bite give us some money...we'll decide how to spend it as you'll be one of many token minority shareholders....and we'll be told no-one wants to invest in Alty

Rowley frittered away the watmore windfall in dribs and drabs at a starting point of the National league resulting in us dropping to the evostick........I'm hoping the new investment will not be similarly wasted but with the same sitting chairman that possibility is heightened...



I believe there is a mechanism for making 51% of the shares available should a suitable buyer be found.
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Jezza

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 03:51:38 PM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?

Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??

Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)

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Alty5678

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 06:14:27 PM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?

Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??

Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)



Is it a great investment? The definition of an investment is to trt make a profit. You don't invest in something to lose money, which you most likely would do putting money into a lower league football club.

It needs somebody who is happy to throw money away and not many wealthy people are fans of this, otherwise they wouldn't be wealthy in the first place.

The best case scenario, from a monetary point of view, is for a big Alty fan to come forward with a case load of cash and throw it at the club, not interested in a return apart from involvement in the club and decision making. This hasn't happened yet, so is unlikely to do so now.
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PukkaPieman

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 08:54:37 PM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?
Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??
Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)

Is it a great investment? The definition of an investment is to trt make a profit. You don't invest in something to lose money, which you most likely would do putting money into a lower league football club.
It needs somebody who is happy to throw money away and not many wealthy people are fans of this, otherwise they wouldn't be wealthy in the first place.
The best case scenario, from a monetary point of view, is for a big Alty fan to come forward with a case load of cash and throw it at the club, not interested in a return apart from involvement in the club and decision making. This hasn't happened yet, so is unlikely to do so now.

Precisely. This is the reality and why "investors" have never come forward, because it isnt investment at all and why the board have taken the path they have these past years, in the absence of an alternative.
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HashtagAlty

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 09:17:27 PM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?
Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??
Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)

Is it a great investment? The definition of an investment is to trt make a profit. You don't invest in something to lose money, which you most likely would do putting money into a lower league football club.
It needs somebody who is happy to throw money away and not many wealthy people are fans of this, otherwise they wouldn't be wealthy in the first place.
The best case scenario, from a monetary point of view, is for a big Alty fan to come forward with a case load of cash and throw it at the club, not interested in a return apart from involvement in the club and decision making. This hasn't happened yet, so is unlikely to do so now.

Precisely. This is the reality and why "investors" have never come forward, because it isnt investment at all and why the board have taken the path they have these past years, in the absence of an alternative.


You're assuming that investments are only financial and monetary though, rather than maybe emotional.

Following a football team is an investment. There is time and money spent in cultivating the relationship and investing in your support. You're hoping investment pays off short term (a weekly win or in the conference even a hard fought point away somewhere tough), but also long term, across the season - be it confirming safety, promotion, playoffs etc.

I once read a quote or heard a story about Directors being at Tottenham or some other high calibre fixture (wembley) about being at the in the directors box there.

You also rule out the "my horse is bigger" strategy that some rich "investors fall in. Many rich people like to have other things their other rich neighbour don't. A share in a successful football club they can show off about, is a little better than a new sports car.

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Graham Bennetts Perm

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2018, 08:59:17 AM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?
Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??
Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)

Is it a great investment? The definition of an investment is to trt make a profit. You don't invest in something to lose money, which you most likely would do putting money into a lower league football club.
It needs somebody who is happy to throw money away and not many wealthy people are fans of this, otherwise they wouldn't be wealthy in the first place.
The best case scenario, from a monetary point of view, is for a big Alty fan to come forward with a case load of cash and throw it at the club, not interested in a return apart from involvement in the club and decision making. This hasn't happened yet, so is unlikely to do so now.

Precisely. This is the reality and why "investors" have never come forward, because it isnt investment at all and why the board have taken the path they have these past years, in the absence of an alternative.


You're assuming that investments are only financial and monetary though, rather than maybe emotional.

Following a football team is an investment. There is time and money spent in cultivating the relationship and investing in your support. You're hoping investment pays off short term (a weekly win or in the conference even a hard fought point away somewhere tough), but also long term, across the season - be it confirming safety, promotion, playoffs etc.

I once read a quote or heard a story about Directors being at Tottenham or some other high calibre fixture (wembley) about being at the in the directors box there.

You also rule out the "my horse is bigger" strategy that some rich "investors fall in. Many rich people like to have other things their other rich neighbour don't. A share in a successful football club they can show off about, is a little better than a new sports car.



Good point. Also, there's a difference between an accountant's view of a good investment, looking at a company p&l account, and an entrepreneur's, who sees the potential that a football club can bring. But then, that's why they're an accountant by profession, not an entrepreneur.
The entrepreneur sees the opportunities for brand building, the development of a  range of new contacts, new partnerships, business relationships, new income streams etc, all of which see profit outside of the narrow view of the club accounts.
It looks like the short lived marketing of 51% of the Club did bring out some interested parties, who took one look at what was in place and didn't come back. There was perhaps too much for them to take on, when looking at the stadium location, the long leasehold, the nature of the infrastructure, the limited potential for onsite development, the lack of commercial facilities, the lack of vision. I think it would take really serious cash, and when there are other similar, but better, opportunities to go for, why bother?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 09:02:01 AM by Graham Bennetts Perm »
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Ballers

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2018, 09:21:13 AM »

That would mean someone giving up their shares to make it up to 51%.....Mr Looney took 10,000 shares?..who has 10,000 shares and would give them up?...what mechanism?
Anyway it's all gone very quiet on the investment front....we've been promoted, we're a great investment......it does feel like we've got one person took up a few shares and we're happy with that and hopefully the whole fragmented share and ownership will go away??
Amazing these shares that are a millstone round the poor poor shareholders neck....and yet when the supporters wanted more than one single share they were eyed with utmost suspicion by Mr Rowley and co....and the fans were prepared to invest continually (unlike Mr Rowley)

Is it a great investment? The definition of an investment is to trt make a profit. You don't invest in something to lose money, which you most likely would do putting money into a lower league football club.
It needs somebody who is happy to throw money away and not many wealthy people are fans of this, otherwise they wouldn't be wealthy in the first place.
The best case scenario, from a monetary point of view, is for a big Alty fan to come forward with a case load of cash and throw it at the club, not interested in a return apart from involvement in the club and decision making. This hasn't happened yet, so is unlikely to do so now.

Precisely. This is the reality and why "investors" have never come forward, because it isnt investment at all and why the board have taken the path they have these past years, in the absence of an alternative.


Quite right, no one invests any money or any backing in any football clubs anywhere.

Remember children - investment and ambition bad, being insular and congratulating each other for hosting a child's.  Birthday party - good.

The place will fall down otherwise.
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Mrs Warbouys

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2018, 10:02:38 AM »

Accrington
Aldershot
Barrow
Boreham Wood
Bromley
Burton
Cheltenham
Crawley
Dover
Eastleigh
Ebbsfleet
Fleetwood
Forest Green
AFC Fylde
Gateshead
Macclesfield
Maidenhead
Maidstone
Morecambe
Salford
Solihull
Stevenage
AFC Wimbledon (formed 2002)

All below us 20 years ago, they’ve not got where they are by accident
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Jezza

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2018, 12:14:55 PM »

We had people fighting in court over ownership of alty...
When ownership was possible....
Look at all those clubs listed above and realise what i mean by we are a good investment...not least because the money goes straight into the club not to a shareholder...we are a cracking club ready for immediate progress...
Ill bet someone invests in gateshead dagenham and the other one in trouble....and i bet they wont make a percentage yield on their money....
Meanwhile sla owner continues to invest...
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PukkaPieman

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Re: Talking about investment...
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2018, 01:34:23 PM »

We had people fighting in court over ownership of alty...
When ownership was possible....
Look at all those clubs listed above and realise what i mean by we are a good investment...not least because the money goes straight into the club not to a shareholder...we are a cracking club ready for immediate progress...
Ill bet someone invests in gateshead dagenham and the other one in trouble....and i bet they wont make a percentage yield on their money....
Meanwhile sla owner continues to invest...

It would help if you had your facts right,... nobody has been fighting in court over ownership to my knowledge.

Alty are NOT an attractive investment in purely financial terms, clearly 20 years of not attracting any is sufficient proof of that !

Most of the clubs listed have had some form of major income from an owner(s) who could afford to spend spare money without any real prospect of getting it back.
In many cases millions, the few that have done it organically werent located 5 miles from the biggest club in the world and 7 miles from the wealthiest one.
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 Talking about investment...